Episode 136 · The GaS Digital / Ray Kump Era
Our Best Episode (Inside the CIA with John Kiriakou)
with John Kiriakou
Feb 23, 2019 · 2:23:59 · 29 segments, 241 moments indexed
- 1 min
Brief musical opener and applause before Tim begins talking.
1moment
- 0:00Tim opens with "Fill her up!"
- 2 min
Why the Episode is Late: Doing Joe Rogan's Podcast
#Tim explains the episode dropped late because he flew to LA to appear on the Joe Rogan Experience, reflecting on being invited and his history watching Rogan at the Comedy Store.
3moments
- 0:39Tim is sick but wants people to enjoy the show anyway.
- 1:32Tim had been a fan of Joe Rogan and his stand-up comedy for a while before meeting him.
- 2:03Tim reflects on what made appearing on Joe Rogan's show so cool beyond just the exposure.
- 3 min
Doing Something at the Highest Level: A Broadcasting Origin Story
#Tim muses on wanting to do podcasting at its highest level, tracing his broadcasting roots back through past podcasts (Stood, Unbelievable, Guys From Queens) and his childhood love of talk radio, Howard Stern, and Joan Rivers' Bush jokes.
6moments
- 2:36Tim on doing something at its highest level: if you dedicate yourself to a craft—whether athlete, parent, or business owner—you want to feel like you're doing it at your best.
- 3:17He had a podcast called Stood with Mike Racine about food that devolved into yelling about ISIS within five minutes.
- 3:44Tim did an earlier conspiracy podcast with two other New York comics called the Unbelievable Podcast.
- 4:00In 2010 and 2011, he hosted his own show on the Guys from Queens Network out of Queens, though it was very short-lived.
- 4:27Growing up, Tim listened to right-wing talk radio—Bob Grant, Rush Limbaugh—not for politics but because they were funny and could talk for three hours straight.
- 4:56He grew up listening to Howard Stern with his father and loved it.
- 4 min
Starting Tim Dillon Is Going to Hell with Ray Kump
#He credits Luis J. Gomez for pushing him to start his own show, then reminisces about driving Long Island with Ray Kump talking JFK, 9/11, and the Federal Reserve in Ray's filthy car, leading to the birth of the podcast.
6moments
- 5:42Joan Rivers had a show on AM Talk Radio where she was hilarious, joking about George W. Bush's post-Katrina speech and his failed oil companies.
- 6:23Luis J. Gomez suggested Tim start his own podcast after an episode of Legion of Skanks, telling him he had diverse interests and should reach people through long-form media.
- 7:09Tim realized podcasting was a much better way to reach people and build a fan base than just performing standup every night hoping for word of mouth.
- 7:43Ray Kump was a Long Island comedian with crazy interests who Tim would drive home with, discussing the Kennedy assassination, 9/11, the World Bank, and the Federal Reserve.
- 8:17Ray's car was filthy with fast food wrappers and boxes piled so high that feet couldn't touch the ground, with a window permanently down in January New York City weather.
- 8:51During those drives they'd talk about conspiracy books like Family of Secrets and The Devil's Chessboard about Alan Dulles and the CIA's origins.
Joan RiversLuis J GomezRay CumpGeorge W. BushLegion of SkanksdinersFederal ReserveWorld Bank+1 more
- 4 min
The Blacklisted Journalists: Talbot, Baker, and Bryant
#Tim details guests David Talbot (Devil's Chessboard, Alan Dulles/JFK), Russ Baker (Family of Secrets), and Nick Bryant (pedophile network book) and how each paid a professional price for their controversial, deeply researched work.
10moments
- 9:26Tim describes bringing ignored writers onto the show—people whose credible books damaged their mainstream careers.
- 9:54David Talbot founded Salon.com and wrote Brothers about the Kennedy family, then The Devil's Chessboard implicating Alan Dulles in JFK's assassination.
- 10:44Talbot's books ruffled feathers in Washington and cost him invitations to Georgetown cocktail parties.
- 11:13Russ Baker, a Polk or Peabody Award-winning journalist for the New York Times and Vanity Fair, wrote Family of Secrets and drew troubling conclusions.
- 11:35Baker's friends warned him not to touch the third rail—CIA, Kennedy, and uncomfortable questions about the American government.
- 12:02Nick Bryant spent seven years investigating an interstate pedophile network in the 80s and 90s trafficking children to high-ranking Washington officials.
- 12:21Bryant lost his agent when he wrote the book; Tim has had lunch with him and doesn't believe he was fabricating.
- 12:35Russ Baker's book contains thousands of notes, Nick Bryant's includes sealed grand jury documents—both spent years researching.
- 13:03Their journalism resembles detective work: knocking on doors, sitting in libraries with microfiche, interviewing elderly witnesses from the events themselves.
- 13:19Tim finds these books credible and worthy of attention despite the authors' reputational costs for writing them.
- 3 min
What Real Journalism Should Be
#Building on the guest stories, Tim argues real journalists should be feared by power, not chummy with it, and praises Mark Eliyahu's Russian mafia episode as an example of the show's format at its best.
6moments
- 13:53Tim describes having Mark Eliaudion on the podcast to discuss his book about the Russian mafia and separating myths from reality.
- 14:34Real journalists should not be chummy with people in power or invited to cocktail parties by their subjects.
- 14:55The job of journalism is to get between powerful people and the public, scrutinizing claims and providing a service democracy needs.
- 15:37Tim's podcast at its best was talking to people who wrote books that changed his perspective on historical events and truth-telling.
- 16:16Telling the truth in society comes with a price; the rewards are greater for playing along and playing the game.
- 16:29Tim clarifies that not every conspiracy theorist is right, and many YouTube streamers making money with sloppy claims are clowns.
Russian MafiaMark Eliaudion
- 4 min
Clowns vs. Truth-Tellers in the Conspiracy World
#Tim distinguishes credible researchers from conspiracy 'clowns' like Alex Jones who make millions saying reckless things, arguing that truth-seekers get punished while showmen profit, which soured him on parts of the conspiracy media world.
10moments
- 16:49Patrice O'Neill's description: some truth-tellers will say legit things and then put marbles up their ass.
- 17:04When conspiracy figures mix true claims with ridiculous ones, the true things get delegitimized.
- 17:23Tim questions whether real threats to power structures actually make tens of millions of dollars, or if they're just circus clowns.
- 17:50Alex Jones and similar figures function as clowns at the circus rather than credible truth-tellers.
- 18:04Tim got frustrated with the conspiracy world because the most credible people—solitary journalists doing deep dives—were ignored.
- 18:31Tim's show at its highest level involved guests like Ray Comp, who risked professional integrity doing real investigative work.
- 18:59A re-released episode with Ray Comp represents the show at its zenith point.
- 19:27Mark Eliyade, author of a book on the Russian mob, said his best interview came from two comedians in an East Village studio.
- 19:53Eliyade's comedians interviewers succeeded because they read the book, knew the material, and were genuinely interested.
- 20:08Tim was thinking about how to do podcasting at its highest level while considering Joe Rogan's approach.
Ray KumpPatrice O'NealAlex JonesJoe RoganMark Eliyade
- 5 min
Reflecting on the CIA Episode and Ray's Reduced Role
#Tim explains why he's re-releasing the John Kiriakou CIA episode, calling it the show's zenith, and notes Ray Kump is no longer a regular co-host now that Tim spends more time in LA, though Ray will return as a guest.
5moments
- 20:37Tim describes what makes the Joe Rogan Experience effective: it's a live conversation with real-time fact-checking and no pre-interview, unlike most shows.
- 21:55Joe's ability to fact-check guests on the fly and move on keeps the show honest—if you say something, it better be funny or have a reason behind it.
- 22:38Tim criticizes shows with tiny audiences that conduct pre-interviews, finding the practice unnecessary even for shows vastly smaller than Rogan's.
- 23:34Comedy specials are rehearsed, edited, and vetted by networks, whereas podcasts like Rogan's are completely live and raw with no safety net.
- 24:32Tim's strategy on podcasts is to make interesting areas funny rather than trying to be smarter than his guests or impress them with knowledge.
- 4 min
John Kiriakou's Torture Whistleblowing Backstory
#Tim previews the CIA episode by summarizing John Kiriakou's history: waterboarding Abu Zubaydah 83 times, the Mitchell/Jessen torture program, Kiriakou's ABC News disclosure, and his prosecution and imprisonment for blowing the whistle.
7moments
- 25:31John Kiriakou was the first person to publicly state that the United States was using waterboarding as torture.
- 25:49The government disclosed that Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded 83 times, not once as initially reported.
- 26:16The CIA set up a torture program designed by two doctors, Mitchell and Jess, that exploited cultural taboos against Arab detainees.
- 26:53The torture program willfully violated the Geneva Conventions, with doctors involved in designing and implementing torture that sometimes killed detainees, many of them innocent.
- 27:22Tim argues that George Washington said during the Revolutionary War that anyone who tortures will be tried, questioning whether post-9/11 America faced greater danger than a nascent nation at war.
- 27:57Kiriakou spent about 18 months in low security prison for being the whistleblower who exposed the torture program.
- 28:22This episode is notable because Kiriakou is the only person from the intelligence services the show has had on as a guest.
Central Intelligence AgencyGeorge WashingtonJohn KiriakoutortureJane MayerGeneva ConventionsThe Dark SideAbu Zubaydah+1 more
- 5 min
Zero Dark Thirty, Hollywood, and Sober vs. Raving Conspiracy Thinking
#He describes topics covered with Kiriakou (CIA-Hollywood ties, Zero Dark Thirty), then draws a sharp line between people who want the truth versus people who need reality to be corrupt, comparing conspiracy obsessives to religious believers.
10moments
- 29:26Zero Dark Thirty was a hunk of shit.
- 29:41Hollywood movies like Zero Dark Thirty have their narratives guided by the CIA, who end up being the good guys.
- 30:01Tim describes the interview as a very sober, rational discussion.
- 30:43The guest discusses pre-intelligence failures leading up to 9-11 and the dysfunction between the CIA and FBI.
- 31:36Tim wanted to move away from conspiracies because he got tired of people trying to prove increasingly absurd theories to him.
- 32:00Many people in the conspiracy realm don't have truth as their main goal—they want to be right.
- 32:23The difference between instinctually feeling things are corrupt and being sober and rational about what the actual truth is.
- 32:42People have a deeply emotional relationship to reality and ignore facts that counter their beliefs, cherry-picking only those that support their worldview.
- 33:05People who believe Hillary Clinton is eating children get angry when presented with lack of proof because it's part of their worldview.
- 33:36Some people need to believe in conspiracy theories about Hillary Clinton eating toddlers the same way others need to believe in heaven and hell and religious mythology.
CIAZero Dark ThirtyJohn BrennanJohn KiriakouHillary ClintonBarack Obama
- 4 min
Toddler-Eating Conspiracies and the Real (Boring) Conspiracies
#Tim rants that conspiracy-obsessed people ignore real, provable scandals like private prisons because they're not as sensational as 'Hillary eating children,' and that the Clintons are Hicks-town functionaries, not secret puppet masters.
5moments
- 34:06Tim advises people obsessed with conspiracies to put down drugs and booze, turn off their phones, and actually live their lives.
- 34:46Real conspiracies exist—private prisons, financial fraud—but people only care about child-eating stories, not systemic exploitation of children by judges.
- 35:36The Clintons are hacky politicians and functionaries, not puppet masters; they can't even fill theaters anymore while conspiracy theorists still cast them as all-powerful.
- 36:57Tim argues that sober, rational analysis is more interesting than assuming everything is a conspiracy.
- 37:20When you lose the ability to think objectively, you become a raving lunatic—and some people make money doing it.
- 5 min
Tim wraps his preamble, plugs live dates (Flappers Burbank), the paywalled GaS Digital archive, and gives final praise to the Joe Rogan Experience as the best podcast he's ever done before handing off to the CIA episode.
8moments
- 37:51Upcoming episode features John Kiriakou, the first torture whistleblower, discussing CIA operations and controversial topics.
- 38:18Tim calls his Joe Rogan appearance the best podcast he's ever done, covering CIA, money laundering, Trump, and comedy.
- 38:57High-level podcasting means releasing an episode dense enough that listeners can extract different interests—comedy nerds, political enthusiasts, researchers.
- 40:05Tim plugs his last LA show at Flappers in Burbank on the 26th, then returning to New York studio in early March.
- 40:49Recent episodes included Ari Shafir, a New York Times comedy critic, and an interview with a survivor of the alleged smiley face killers operating on the dark web.
- 41:40The Rogan episode is episode 1251, and Tim emphasizes it as his best work despite having done many podcasts.
- 41:58Joe Rogan operates at a level nobody else does in podcasting, which explains why his show is the biggest—it's not accidental.
- 42:20New segment begins: Inside the CIA, with a brand new episode coming next week.
- 1 min
Short network ID/bumper for Tim Dillon Is Going to Hell.
2moments
- 42:29Tim claims Dylan is going to hell
- 42:41Tim promises a hard critical look at society's chosen people
- 3 min
Summer, Boat People, and the Elites of the Hamptons
#Tim and Ray riff on never being 'summer people,' fantasizing about being a boatsman, and pricing out impossibly expensive hotels near East Hampton for Tim's upcoming Steven's Talkhouse gig.
7moments
- 43:11Tim never lived for summer as a kid, despite getting severe sunburns that left his back covered in blisters.
- 43:39Fat people and poor people don't live for summer the way wealthy people do.
- 44:01He knew a guy who strapped a kayak to his Jetta and went fishing every day after work.
- 44:35Tim sees himself as one degree away from being a boatsman who could navigate the open sea and prey on people.
- 45:08He has a gig coming up in late July at Stephen's Talkhouse in Amagansett or East Hampton.
- 45:28Hotels in the Hamptons don't want you staying just one night—a standard king room costs $900.
- 45:52Elites do an amazing job separating themselves from ordinary people once they get out of the city.
Steven's TalkhouseGaS Digital
- 4 min
Dog-Walking Comics in Rich People's Apartments
#They discuss how NYC comedians survive by house-sitting and dog-walking in multi-million dollar celebrity apartments (Justin Timberlake, Ryan Reynolds), and the strange, sparse, hotel-like lives of the ultra-wealthy who have no privacy.
9moments
- 46:35Dog walkers and personal assistants in New York get access to multi-million dollar apartments most people never see, hanging out in places where Justin Timberlake and Ryan Reynolds live.
- 47:07A friend making $200,000 a year in finance has never been inside an apartment like the ones Tim enters as a circus person through comedy connections.
- 47:51You need to know the chimney sweeps and dirt bags to get real access to wealthy people's lives in the city.
- 48:27Tim has slept overnight in $15 million apartments while house-sitting for rich people who don't actually care that he's there.
- 48:37Rich people have cameras everywhere and don't care about strangers in their homes—you're still nowhere near their actual life even when you're inside their apartment.
- 49:06Having serious money in New York means never having real privacy, with a constant stream of people putting food in your refrigerator, watching your kids, and cleaning your home.
- 49:21Wealthy New Yorkers seem perpetually at work even when home, living in sparse hotel-like spaces rather than lived-in houses, constantly behind a MacBook and iPhone.
- 49:39At high levels of society there's only pressure to go up or down, no coasting—with constant expenses for kids, wives, ex-wives, and obligations to maintain.
- 49:59Tim jokes that at least he and the host won't have those problems, unless his boatsman career takes off.
- 5 min
Introducing John Kiriakou and Pre-Interview Banter
#Tim and Ray discuss having their first actual CIA agent on the show, joke about him being 'disgraced,' riff on panko breadcrumbs, and speculate about how the call-in logistics with Kiriakou will go.
9moments
- 50:20Tim says the CIA would complain about the show's one-sided presentation of what they do.
- 50:37Introducing John Kiriakou, a former CIA agent who was jailed by the agency and became a reluctant whistleblower.
- 51:16Kiriakou was a CIA agent during 9/11 and objected to the Bush administration's torture and interrogation programs.
- 52:20Major failure on Kiriakou's people's part for getting him to do this show.
- 52:45Tim respects that Kiriakou is calling in despite the hosts' cynical and negative view of the agency.
- 53:08Tim questions whether he's being arrogant assuming a former director of intelligence would have trouble with two comedians.
- 53:34Tim respects anyone willing to call in and talk to curious people, even if they're hawking a book.
- 54:17Raymond and Tim get sidetracked arguing about panko breadcrumbs ruining fried food.
- 54:42Tim jokes they can ask Kiriakou about breadcrumbs when he calls in via Skype.
- 8 min
Waiting on the Call: Recruitment Fantasies and Prison Reform Jokes
#More stalling riffs before the call connects: jokes about wanting to be recruited by the CIA or Mossad, mocking Kiriakou's prison reform ambitions, and the CIA deputy director trolling him with prison rape jokes on Twitter.
13moments
- 55:21Tim wants to know how they got recruited into the CIA and whether they can discuss it.
- 55:47Tim says he wants to be like Batman and has been an advocate for the rich, but they ignore him.
- 56:23Tim describes being in a career phase where things are going well but he lacks the wealthy friends with Hamptons homes that come with major success.
- 56:56Having a TV show seems to be the threshold for rich people to invite you to stay at their houses.
- 57:37Ralph told Tim that everyone on their network is either a drug addict or ex-drug addict with no bank accounts or family relationships—comics are the last circus people.
- 58:35Tim says the most successful people in comedy are still complete zeros to the rest of the world, including himself.
- 59:11Tim imagines getting a major recording contract where one guy defends him while walking in with his gut hanging out, comparing himself to Michael Jackson.
- 1:00:53Tim discusses a caller who got out of the CIA and prison for leaking state secrets and is now interested in prison reform.
- 1:01:28Tim mocks the idea of a privileged white guy going to prison and then deciding he might want to get involved in prison reform depending on how his book sells.
- 1:01:56Tim notes that the deputy director of the CIA was trolling the caller on Twitter before his jail sentence with infantile jokes like 'don't drop the soap.'
- 1:02:23The caller emails back saying he's ready whenever they are and sends an invitation to the show.
- 1:02:38Tim observes that a CIA agent calling in should be able to coordinate a smooth conversation, but this guy apparently can't.
- 1:02:53They decide to call the person back to continue the conversation.
Bradley ManningThe HamptonsCIAReal Ass PodcastMichael JacksonImpractical Jokers
- 7 min
Kiriakou joins the call; he explains his book Doing Time Like a Spy, his prison blog that angered the BOP, and the bizarre incident where guards apparently tried to incite another inmate to attack him.
10moments
- 1:03:15Tim introduces John Kiriakou's book Doing Time Like a Spy, about his 30-month prison sentence and how CIA skills helped him survive.
- 1:04:07Kiriakou was one of the first anti-torture whistleblowers, confirming in a 2007 ABC News interview that CIA torture was official U.S. policy approved by the president.
- 1:04:51Tim asks about Kiriakou writing a blog while in prison that "completely pissed them off" and cost him early release time.
- 1:05:20Kiriakou explains the blog started accidentally when a friend asked him to write an open letter to supporters, which eventually reached Arianna Huffington and the Huffington Post.
- 1:06:08Prison officials showed Kiriakou a picture of an Arab prisoner and claimed he called Pakistan saying Kiriakou told him to kill him.
- 1:06:47Kiriakou's response to the threat: "I can kill this guy with my thumb," noting the prisoner was 5'4", 120 pounds.
- 1:07:06Kiriakou realizes the setup makes no sense—the prisoner wouldn't call Pakistan if he speaks Arabic, since they don't speak Arabic in Pakistan.
- 1:07:33When Kiriakou confronts the prisoner on the yard, he learns the officials told him the same lie about Kiriakou calling Washington to have him killed.
- 1:07:59Tim asks what Kiriakou thinks the guards were trying to do; Kiriakou explains they wanted to incite violence between them for amusement.
- 1:08:51Kiriakou explains that in 2002 he was the only one of 14 CIA trainees who declined to be trained in torture techniques on ethical grounds.
CIAABC NewsJohn KiriakouAl-QaedaJustice DepartmentAbu ZubaydahArianna HuffingtonBrian Ross+5 more
- 6 min
Kiriakou details how he became a whistleblower: declining torture training, Brian Ross's ABC interview after Bush denied torture publicly, and how the Obama DOJ secretly reopened the case against him after the FBI had cleared him.
11moments
- 1:10:10Bush looks at the camera and says 'we do not torture,' and the speaker tells his wife he's a bald-faced liar.
- 1:10:27Days later, Bush claims torture is the result of a rogue CIA officer, and the speaker realizes Brian Ross's sources are going to pin this on him.
- 1:10:50Within 24 hours of doing the interview, the CIA files a crimes report and the FBI begins investigating the speaker.
- 1:11:14After the FBI closes the case in December 2008, the CIA secretly asks the Obama Justice Department to reopen it.
- 1:11:59The speaker actually did resign from the CIA to spend more time with his family—he had two young sons in Ohio and didn't want to go back overseas.
- 1:12:50On 9/11, the speaker was working on the 17 November Task Force targeting a Greek communist terrorist group, but by end of day almost everyone in the CIA was working on al-Qaeda.
- 1:13:21The speaker volunteers repeatedly for Afghanistan, then threatens to walk to Exxon with his Arabic skills unless sent overseas immediately.
- 1:14:26The CIA was so obsessed with killing Osama bin Laden that it took months before headquarters even asked what to do if they caught someone.
- 1:15:04Mitchell and Jessen were psychologists crafting interrogation methods based on their understanding of what was taboo in Arab culture.
- 1:15:41After being asked if he received interrogation training, the speaker answers with 'a resounding no.'
- 1:15:56The speaker says they were just winging it while out in the field.
President BushBarack ObamaMitchell and JessenBrian RossOsama bin Laden
- 8 min
Kiriakou describes volunteering for Pakistan post-9/11, the CIA's total lack of interrogation training, being offered torture training in 2002, and the brutal escalation of Abu Zubaydah's waterboarding and cockroach-cage treatment.
10moments
- 1:16:08Post-9/11 FBI protocol: captured suspects in foreign countries were turned over to the FBI because the investigation was still open.
- 1:16:42Tim's guest describes being offered training in enhanced interrogation techniques in May 2002 and asking what that meant.
- 1:17:14The CIA officer outlines ten torture techniques including waterboarding, extreme heat, stress positions, and sleep deprivation.
- 1:17:38A senior officer warns the guest that torture is a slippery slope and someone will eventually go to prison for it.
- 1:18:24Tim notes that no congressional investigation, Justice Department investigation, or ceremonial commission was ever established despite deaths during CIA interrogations.
- 1:19:44Abu Zubaydah was shot by a Pakistani policeman and took months to recover before interrogation could begin.
- 1:20:18FBI agent Ali Sufan used rapport-building interrogation methods and obtained actionable intelligence from Abu Zubaydah.
- 1:21:08CIA director George Tenet asked President Bush to remove the FBI from the country, and Bush complied.
- 1:21:59After the FBI left, the CIA waterboarded Abu Zubaydah 83 times, escalating immediately to the most severe technique on day one.
- 1:23:08Tim's guest explains the CIA believed Abu Zubaydah was the crown jewel of Al Qaeda intelligence, confusing him with a different operative living in Montana.
Abu ZubaydahtortureAli SufanBarack ObamaGeorge TenetAbu GhraibAl-QaedaCIA+4 more
- 7 min
Kiriakou discusses the CIA officer profiled in Zero Dark Thirty who failed to share pre-9/11 intelligence, calls her a probable sociopath who enjoyed watching torture, and describes the deadly Khost suicide bombing tied to her circle.
10moments
- 1:24:38Mitchell and Jessen torture contract produced nothing of value, but they claimed credit for intelligence Ali Sufan had already collected.
- 1:25:46The CIA ran headfirst into the torture program, requesting every technique possible and expecting lawyers to reject some along the way.
- 1:26:57Zero Dark Thirty profiled a career CIA officer instrumental in the interrogation program who witnessed waterboarding of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
- 1:27:45Tim presses on whether leadership in counter-terrorism consists of sociopaths rather than people driven by post-9/11 guilt.
- 1:28:22The guest personally considered this officer an associate psychopath who flew to a secret location solely to watch torture and enjoy it.
- 1:28:51Despite failing intelligence work, she got promoted and was in the situation room during the Bin Laden capture with Obama and Hillary.
- 1:29:18She was an analyst with no operational experience, foreign recruitment, or overseas tours, but ingratiating herself kept her in positions of power.
- 1:29:55A clique of women branch chiefs at the Counterterrorism Center socialized together daily—described as Real Housewives of the CIA.
- 1:30:21One unqualified officer sent to be chief of base in Khost with no operational, security, or weapons training resulted in a suicide bomber killing half a dozen CIA officers including her.
- 1:31:05The same woman from Zero Dark Thirty's narrative becomes central to institutional failures and the bombing at Khost base.
tortureMitchell and JessenCIAAli SufanKhalid Sheikh MohammedBarack ObamaJane MayerOsama bin Laden+2 more
- 12 min
They cover the CIA's Office of Public Affairs shaping films like Argo and Zero Dark Thirty, John Brennan's partisan closeness to Obama, and how the agency 'hooks' inexperienced presidents with sensitive intelligence access.
15moments
- 1:31:13CIA has a dedicated office within public affairs solely to manage relationships with Hollywood studios, just as J. Edgar Hoover did with the FBI in the 1950s.
- 1:31:49Tim brings up Argo and Zero Dark Thirty as examples of CIA-influenced films.
- 1:32:00Tim recounts seeing Ben Affleck walk past his office door without security while working at the CIA.
- 1:33:10The guest explains Saudi Arabia played a more instrumental role in 9/11 than previously acknowledged, and raises questions about why the CIA didn't share intelligence on Al-Midar and Al-Hazmi with the FBI.
- 1:33:53Tim points out the intense hatred between CIA and FBI prevented information sharing, leading to 3,000 American deaths.
- 1:34:47The CIA and FBI didn't have access to each other's databases, forcing individual officers to decide whether to share critical intelligence.
- 1:36:15Tim asks whether John Brennan was a good director and notes his extremely close relationship with Obama.
- 1:36:49The guest calls John Brennan one of the worst CIA directors in modern history, describing him as intensely partisan and too close to the president.
- 1:37:30Judge Webster is cited as the model CIA director—someone with credibility and willingness to challenge presidents.
- 1:38:25The CIA prefers inexperienced presidents because they can seduce them with highly classified information, which is exactly what happened with Obama.
- 1:39:30John Brennan was the only intelligence official who joined Obama's 2008 campaign instead of Hillary's, positioning himself perfectly for power.
- 1:40:34The guest describes the threat matrix as one of the biggest bullshit documents, where unvetted reports from random people claiming to have nuclear bombs get sent directly to the president.
- 1:41:27Tim suggests CIA fear-mongering may be driven by military contractors like DynCorp and Blackwater who profit from perpetual war.
- 1:42:02The guest agrees the U.S. has entered a permanent war-based economy where Washington insiders have grown rich on the war on terror.
- 1:42:36Tim points to J. Edgar Hoover as the master of increasing budgets even after major FBI failures, a tactic the CIA continues today.
CIAJohn BrennanFBIBarack ObamaGeorge W. BushJ. Edgar HooverJudge WebsterSaudi Arabia+13 more
- 6 min
Kiriakou argues the U.S. runs a permanent war-based economy, describes the absurd 'threat matrix' fed to presidents, and reveals that Al-Qaeda's real numbers in Afghanistan were tiny within a year of the invasion.
11moments
- 1:43:00Post-9/11 fear of al-Qaeda was wildly overblown.
- 1:43:14Senator Jeanne Shaheen reported fewer than 50 al-Qaeda fighters left in Afghanistan a year after 9/11, but nobody paid attention.
- 1:43:41Tim explains how the military mission shifted from destroying al-Qaeda to destroying the Taliban to rebuilding Afghanistan.
- 1:44:18After 16 years, the Taliban is resurgent and the mission keeps changing to new enemy groups.
- 1:44:37Al-Qaeda had a core command structure; everyone else was a freelancer, mostly teenagers aged 18, 19, 20.
- 1:44:49Captured al-Qaeda fighters were children who cried and asked for their mothers—the fearsome enemy the US was afraid of.
- 1:45:22Tim asks what motivates people to keep the perpetual war machine going on a practical level.
- 1:45:52The guest thinks intelligence officials convinced themselves terrorism has no end and will always require fighting.
- 1:46:20Post-9/11, the CIA put out information to the public that was grossly different from what they knew.
- 1:47:56The CIA hates Trump because he's impossible to control, unlike other presidents.
- 1:48:42The guest wrote that there's no good guy among the CIA, Russians, and Trump—no one should be trusted.
Donald TrumpCIAAl-QaedaTalibanJohn BrennanJean ShaheenRussiaAfghanistan
- 7 min
Kiriakou discusses why the CIA distrusts Trump because he's uncontrollable, expresses skepticism of Russian meddling claims, and describes the Council on Foreign Relations as a wealthy social club that shapes elite consensus without formal CIA control.
10moments
- 1:49:06Trump is out of control, doesn't trust the CIA, and fired the FBI director—he's not shaped by normal presidential deference to institutions like the CFR.
- 1:50:10CFR is a club of well-meaning, highly educated, very wealthy business people who wish they were involved in foreign policy and host dinners in Park Avenue townhouses.
- 1:51:44CFR has one official CIA liaison position and its analysis is very important to the State Department and Pentagon, which host events and dinners with them.
- 1:52:38Tim argues that the CFR creates a consensus on economic and foreign policy that then gets adopted by people in power.
- 1:53:26When you're at dinner with Henry Kissinger and Fortune 50 CEOs thinking big thoughts, you come up with a consensus that leads to White House invitations.
- 1:53:39The CIA spied on the Senate Intelligence Commission investigating Bush-era torture, and Tim asks whether they use blackmail domestically against elected leaders.
- 1:54:22A criminal investigation should have been opened against John Brennan for hacking the Senate Intelligence Committee's computers—it's a threat to democracy.
- 1:54:59Why is everybody so afraid of the CIA and unwilling to rein them in on any level?
- 1:55:14Congress does cheerleading for the CIA instead of oversight, and Dianne Feinstein has done nothing to rein in the agency's power despite her seniority.
- 1:55:41Tim asks about CIA involvement in coups during the Dulles era and raises the question of Kennedy, noting Nixon was documented as afraid of the CIA.
Dianne FeinsteinDonald TrumpCIACouncil on Foreign RelationsFrank ChurchJohn BrennanSenate Intelligence Committeetrilateral commission+5 more
- 6 min
Kiriakou discusses the Mary Meyer murder theory tied to JFK's assassination, the CIA's hacking of the Senate Intelligence Committee's torture-report computers, and how the ruined careers of whistleblowers like Kiriakou himself deter future dissent.
7moments
- 1:56:18Tim describes Peter Janney's 'Mary's Mosaic,' which uses CIA and DoD documents to argue the agency killed Mary Meyer, JFK's mistress, to prevent her from revealing Kennedy's plan to dismantle the CIA.
- 1:57:42Journalist Michael Hastings died in a suspicious car accident after making problems for powerful people and telling friends the FBI was surveilling him.
- 1:58:28Whistleblowers like the guest and Tom Drake faced multimillion-dollar legal bills, lost pensions and wives, and permanent career destruction for dissenting internally.
- 1:59:16Tim questions whether Michael Hastings' death was truly accidental, saying his instinct now is to question everything he reads.
- 2:00:22The guest notes that major operations like the CIA's 1953 coup in Iran remained secret for 30 to 40 years, only becoming public after Kermit Roosevelt's death.
- 2:00:48The CIA is often portrayed as incompetent, but the guest describes them as sophisticated operators with networks of dark money and drug trafficking to fund operations.
- 2:01:22Tim argues that most intelligence people he knows are idiots, and large conspiracies require too many moving parts and perfect silence to actually succeed.
CIAMichael HastingsJohn F. KennedyPeter JanneyMary MeyerCord MeyerJeffrey SterlingTom Drake+2 more
- 10 min
Kiriakou explains why he trusts Seymour Hersh's reporting over official CIA lines, recounts two Saudi princes linked to Abu Zubaydah's address book dying mysteriously, and discusses a covert Saudi-Israeli radar incident suggesting hidden cooperation against Iran.
14moments
- 2:02:16U.S. government has been reluctant to be honest with Americans about Saudi Arabia's possible role in 9/11.
- 2:03:03Seymour Hersh's guest explains the American people haven't been given facts they deserve about Saudi Arabia's formal or informal involvement.
- 2:03:30When Abu Zubaydah was captured, his address book contained names and cell phone numbers of two Saudi princes, both of whom died mysteriously afterward—one in a car accident, one from thirst in the desert.
- 2:04:59Tim asks about the conspiracy claim that John Brennan converted to Islam.
- 2:05:22Seymour Hersh reported sources claiming U.S. troops or Iraqi officers sexually abused children on camera during torture operations, far worse than publicly known Abu Ghraib details.
- 2:06:40Tim says if the CIA says one thing and Seymour Hersh says the opposite, he trusts Hersh.
- 2:06:55Hersh published an article suggesting everything known about the Bin Laden raid is wrong, that Pakistan was holding him, and the courier story is false.
- 2:07:30Every former senior CIA officer condemned Hersh's Bin Laden article, which made the guest believe Hersh had struck a nerve and was onto something.
- 2:08:12Tim questions whether throwing Bin Laden's body at sea was the actual reason or convenient bullshit, since the government gave no proof of the raid.
- 2:09:15Saudi Arabia's ground radar mysteriously shut off for two hours, allowing Israeli jets to cross the country to the UAE and return—likely a dry run to test speed to Iran.
- 2:09:58Behind-the-scenes relationships exist between Israel, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, and likely Qatar, all aligned against Iran.
- 2:10:38Tim's guest dismisses the pipeline argument for Middle East wars because fracking made U.S. oil independence viable.
- 2:10:58Rare earth minerals used in everything from car bumpers to nuclear missiles are the real concern—the U.S. has almost none, and Afghanistan's abundance may have motivated military intervention.
- 2:11:36Building and propping up an Afghan government could have been motivated partly by creating stability to allow mining of rare minerals.
Saudi ArabiaAbu ZubaydahSeymour HershIsraelJohn BrennanJohn KiriyakuOsama bin LadenAbu Ghraib+5 more
- 4 min
Kiriakou describes running into deep-cover CIA colleagues in public (Whole Foods, Barnes & Noble), speculates on Afghanistan's rare mineral motive, and the interview wraps with him plugging his book and mailing list.
8moments
- 2:12:04Woman called him a traitor at Barnes and Noble after recognizing him as CIA whistleblower.
- 2:12:25Tim compares Washington spy circles to LA celebrity neighborhoods where everyone lives in the same area.
- 2:12:58Kiriakou ran into John McLaughlin, the acting CIA director, at a used bookstore in Dupont Circle and they awkwardly greeted each other.
- 2:13:24Tim asks about deep cover agents with wiped fingerprints and fake identities living as museum curators or insurance salesmen.
- 2:14:04Kiriakou describes the psychological toll of maintaining deep cover for an entire lifetime.
- 2:14:27Kiriakou notes the woman's husband appears on every podcast despite having nine listeners.
- 2:14:49Woman may be charged with human rights crimes in Europe and cannot travel outside the US after retirement.
- 2:15:19Kiriakou plugs his book Doing Time Like a Spy about surviving and thriving in prison.
Colin PowellJohn McLaughlinJohn KiriakouCIADelta BurkeEd Begley Jr.Gerald McRannyJohn Cryer+1 more
- 6 min
Post-Interview Debrief: 'Best Interview We've Ever Done'
#Tim and Ray break down the Kiriakou interview afterward, agreeing it might be their best episode, discussing his earnestness, institutional CIA/FBI rivalry, and wanting the Zero Dark Thirty analyst on the show.
10moments
- 2:16:17Tim calls the interview "the best interview we've ever done."
- 2:16:34Guest successfully charmed them despite initial intention to criticize him hard.
- 2:16:53Tim notes how easy it is to win their favor with basic flattery like "good question."
- 2:17:26Guest didn't watch the five-hour Pearl Harbor documentary that Tim and the co-host have seen.
- 2:17:49Tim expresses interest in having a conspiracy theorist author on the show to argue with them.
- 2:18:42Guest is probably only sharing 25% of what he knows, with classification restrictions on the rest.
- 2:19:07Information about Saudi and Israeli princes being killed was new to Tim.
- 2:19:58Guest seems like an earnest guy excited to be in Hollywood who'd probably like to sell a screenplay.
- 2:20:42Tim notes the counterintuitive claim that CIA divisions hated each other rather than cooperating on 9/11.
- 2:21:05Awkward transition from deep intelligence discussion to promoting his comedy tour dates.
- 3 min
Tim runs through upcoming tour stops (Zanies Chicago, Lansing, Hamptons, Mohegan Sun, DC Improv), plugs the bus tour signup and GaS Digital Network subscription, then closes the show.
8moments
- 2:21:25Tour dates in Lansing Michigan, the Hamptons, Wilmington, Connecticut, DC, and Tennessee available at TimDillonComedy.com
- 2:21:49Crazy Bus Tour signup available in New York City and coming to Los Angeles in the fall
- 2:22:02Tim explains the email signup sends only one notification when tickets go on sale, not constant hammering
- 2:22:29Raymond the guinea pig announcement coming soon with unspecified projects in the works
- 2:22:53Subscribe to Gas Digital Network for all shows and rate the podcast on iTunes
- 2:23:04Tim complains about the show's tendency to recommend other successful content instead of building their own audience
- 2:23:23Tim declines to watch Wimbledon and says the show ran long at an hour and 45 minutes
- 2:23:34Sign-off: "Thanks everybody. Goodbye. The CIA loves you."