Episode 52 · The GaS Digital / Ray Kump Era
Behind the Youtube (with Joe Santagato)
with Joe Santagato
Jul 4, 2017 · 1:34:45 · 23 segments, 188 moments indexed
- 2 min
Subway Anxiety and the Uber Pool Refusal
#Tim opens riffing on his refusal to take the subway, the social awkwardness of suggesting an Uber to a group, and his hatred of feeling trapped underground versus above ground with the window down.
6moments
- 0:36Tim hasn't taken a subway in a month.
- 0:49It's often embarrassing to suggest an Uber when everyone else wants to take the train.
- 1:00Tim wants to leave the platform and get an Uber instead of waiting for a train that hasn't arrived.
- 1:17Even though Ubers give him no more control, being above ground with the window down feels better.
- 1:28It's not about speed—his friend argued it's seven minutes faster than the subway, but he doesn't care.
- 1:47He'll just leave earlier rather than compromise on comfort.
- 4 min
Tim welcomes YouTuber/podcaster Joe Santagato and they reminisce about Elite Daily's cheap viral content mill, including absurd prompts like 'what is a fuckboy' and comparing trans people to kale, plus Joe's awkward gig auditioning broke comedians for videos.
7moments
- 2:25Tim did videos for Elite Daily, including one called "What Is a Fuck Boy."
- 2:50Elite Daily's format: show up to a nice office with studios and green screens, then get assigned absurd prompts like "Which Disney character would you like to fuck."
- 3:01Tim refused to write jokes for the videos, preferring to wing it because the premise didn't seem worth the effort.
- 3:47The whole operation was driven by whatever was trending that week, with no creative vision beyond capitalizing on the moment.
- 4:27Elite Daily paid fifty bucks per video, which Tim now sees as evidence of how tragic that period of his life was.
- 4:43Joe had to conduct auditions for Elite Daily at 21 years old, evaluating comedians ten years his senior who came in rattling off jokes.
- 5:07Joe compiled a list of comedians in the New York City area and had them audition by answering questions while he sat behind a desk judging their jokes.
Joe SandigatoElite Daily
- 4 min
Tim marvels at Joe's YouTube subscriber and view counts outperforming network TV, leading into a discussion of MagCon, Chasing Cameron, and the hysteria around teen YouTube stars like Cameron Dallas.
6moments
- 6:01Tim notes that YouTube creators like his guest average 1.5 million viewers per video—more eyeballs than CBS primetime sitcoms that cost millions to produce.
- 6:22Making videos from a basement reaches more people than network television with hired writers, producers, and talent under big contracts.
- 6:42Tim asks if this new form of success equals fame, wondering if his guest feels famous.
- 7:07Guest describes MagCon and similar meet-and-greet events where young YouTube creators could earn money meeting screaming fans.
- 8:00Tim's guest attended these conventions early on because he had no money—his YouTube account was demonetized for the first three years around 2012–2013.
- 8:40Guest explains the attendees were mostly young, impressionable girls screaming at creators' faces without knowing anything about them.
The Basement YardCBSCameron DallasChasing CameronYouTubeWMEMagCon
- 4 min
Joe explains his discomfort with fan meet-and-greet mania compared to stand-up comedians grinding at their craft, and they joke about pitching a Cameron Dallas podcast and whether Joe knows any of the MagCon crowd.
10moments
- 9:07Tim dislikes meet-and-greet culture and the formal setup of being treated as hugely important by screaming fans, which gives him anxiety.
- 9:43Instagram influencers like Cameron Dallas will record music and perform at meet-and-greets where they play a song in the background and jump around or throw water bottles at each other.
- 10:34Tim spends time around comedians doing stand-up multiple times a night, trying to get good at a specific craft that is dying and nobody really cares about anymore.
- 10:51Stand-up comedy is comparable to jazz musicians being asked to put down their instruments—it's a specific, driven thing you develop confidence in by getting good at it.
- 11:14Young influencers run on stage with zero experience and perform anyway, which Tim finds impressive but also suspects is just a power trip over an audience of homogeneous teenagers.
- 11:57Tim is not really recognized as part of the YouTube community and doesn't interact much with other YouTubers, partly because people don't call him a YouTuber at all.
- 12:25Many of these guys came from Vine and became Vine stars by jumping on beds and taking their shirts off, which is not Tim's brand.
- 12:52Tim's numbers are comparable to most of these kids' numbers, though Cameron Dallas has surpassed him.
- 13:03Cameron Dallas doing a podcast would just be him jumping on a bed instead of speaking into the microphone for an hour.
- 13:19The fundamental problem is that Cameron Dallas would need to actually talk into the microphone, which doesn't fit his bed-jumping brand.
- 3 min
They discuss how comedians self-mythologize as damaged people, Joe's early filmmaking with a camcorder and Frankie, his family being funnier than him, and a joke about Joe accidentally killing a family during a livestream.
9moments
- 13:38Most comedians are broken in some way, and comedy feels like it might fix them.
- 14:12Joe posts every Tuesday on one channel and day-to-day content on another, plus does multiple podcasts and videos weekly.
- 14:45Joe observes that everyone in stand-up comedy is broken for the most part.
- 15:22Comedians at open mics didn't like Joe because he's good-looking and successful—two negatives in comedy.
- 15:48Other comedians assumed Joe must have had no pain and nothing difficult happen to him.
- 15:59Comedians project the idea that they must be sad and unhappy to fit the stand-up mold.
- 16:10Joe says he's been through difficult things but doesn't talk about them.
- 16:22Tim jokes that Joe killed a family with his car, which Joe doesn't deny outright.
- 16:34Joe clarifies he was doing a YouTube live stream when he hit the family.
Kate WolfSantagato Studios
- 5 min
Joe details starting on YouTube at 18, getting demonetized for years, refusing to censor himself or chase young-girl-friendly content, and the slow grind of one video a week for years while filming behind a bedsheet in his mom's basement.
10moments
- 16:52Tim got his first camera as a kid and has been interested in filming since he was super young.
- 17:09At 11 or 12, he and his friend Frankie shot skits on cassette tape—American Idol parodies, wrestling matches, character bits.
- 17:43In his family, everyone's hysterical and loud; he figured filming and writing jokes was the only way to get heard.
- 18:24Tim argues comedians criticize YouTube creators out of envy and jealousy, but many standups put out garbage too.
- 18:58Creators build huge, engaged fanbases in ways that take standups years, and most never get there at all.
- 19:41When he started at 18, he didn't think of it as a career—just a place to upload videos and look back on them later.
- 20:06His first videos were of him and a friend at a summer house in Connecticut, drinking by a fire and going on boats.
- 20:24He decided to curse, not censor himself, and not appeal to the young girls who were the majority of YouTube users at the time.
- 20:43His first video was ridiculous—an entire rant about sluts—which he's pretty sure he privatized because it wasn't good.
- 21:17Tim advises people not to assume they're starting a career, because it takes three or four years to build any real momentum.
- 4 min
Joe explains why he refused to cross-promote/collab like other YouTubers, how long it took to monetize, and the story of dropping out of Queensborough Community College to pursue YouTube against his parents' worry.
7moments
- 23:10Tim pitched Cameron Dallas a collaboration video and received a response from his lawyers.
- 23:26YouTubers cross-promote with each other to build followings, but the guest didn't participate in that strategy.
- 23:58The guest has two million subscribers with disproportionately high view counts compared to creators who collabed their way to larger subscriber bases.
- 24:27Guest initially wanted to collaborate with anyone just to gain subscribers, then changed his approach after realizing it didn't align with his vision.
- 24:41It took three years before the guest started making money from YouTube, delayed by content flags.
- 25:04Four and a half to five years passed before YouTube income became substantial enough to consider as a job.
- 25:20The early videos were filmed in his mom's basement with a bedsheet stapled to the ceiling as a backdrop.
- 3 min
Joe recalls literally stapling a bedsheet to his basement ceiling for a backdrop, the appeal of feeling 'close' to a YouTuber filming in their own space, and his desire for creative autonomy across podcasts and a possible scripted show.
6moments
- 26:01Tim hung thumbtacks in his mom's basement ceiling to hang a bedsheet as a background for early videos.
- 26:17Shooting in the basement was deliberate—Tim wanted to expose the bullshit on platforms and show people you don't need the manufactured setup to succeed.
- 26:41There's something intimate about watching someone in their own room—it makes viewers feel close to the creator in a way theater or polished studios don't.
- 27:02Tim observes that lonely, geographically isolated people form real friendships with YouTube creators by hanging out with them on the couch.
- 27:36The sports podcast follows the same philosophy—casual and honest like actual fans talking, not suited news anchors doing a performed voice.
- 28:15Tim makes a point to curse right at the start of meetings to set the frequency and relax everyone, because it feels more real than formal small talk.
- 5 min
Joe admits to getting international nudes at 19-21 (including a Maryland crab cake joke), Tim presses him on webcam escalation and appropriate timelines, and they touch on a YouTuber's child porn scandal.
9moments
- 28:43Tim dropped out of Queensborough Community College after signing up late and couldn't even bring himself to walk into the building.
- 29:22He wasn't lazy—had Saturday and Sunday 8 a.m. math classes at 18, 19 years old when he wanted to be out drinking.
- 29:48Started a YouTube channel without telling his parents he'd be a YouTuber, since he didn't even know what that was yet.
- 30:10His parents' only guidance after he dropped out: you're at a disadvantage now, you're gonna have to work harder than everyone else.
- 30:52Tim jokes about his mother's dream of him owning the pizzeria where he was working.
- 31:09Now he's built something—making good money, brought buddies into podcasts on his network, though he won't use the word mogul.
- 31:35Hollywood meetings with social media guys explain that what some creators do doesn't translate to other mediums—can't just jump on a bed on HBO.
- 32:01He prefers to create and build things from the ground up rather than leverage existing followings into other spaces.
- 32:44Interested in writing a scripted show and actually had Tim in mind for one of the characters.
- 4 min
Joe explains the DM traffic dried up as his fanbase aged and shifted platforms, then they dig into why Joe avoids posting politics despite audience pressure, contrasting with celebrities who lecture fans about elections.
8moments
- 33:29Tim pitches a scripted show idea he hasn't fully developed yet.
- 34:02Joe used to receive nudes from all over the world at 19 or 21 years old.
- 34:46Followers send Joe pictures of random things like Australian tips and crab cakes to authenticate them.
- 35:22Tim asks if Joe has gone further into webcam interactions with people sending nudes.
- 35:47Joe explains he'd only escalate to video chat if he'd already built rapport with someone over time.
- 36:38Tim brings up a YouTuber who recently got in trouble for soliciting explicit content from a minor.
- 37:08Joe says he barely receives unsolicited nudes anymore, unlike the past three years.
- 37:21The pattern change and its causes are about to be discussed.
RiverheadCameron DallasLong IslandSanta Gado studio30 Rock
- 4 min
They riff on Twitter virality being random (sweet potato fries getting more retweets than crafted political jokes), Facebook's video algorithm boosting Joe's early growth, and a bit about Joe's 'Uncle George' being George Zimmerman.
9moments
- 37:24Snapchat messages disappear, so people are braver there, but the NSA has them anyway.
- 37:47Tim's fan base has completely changed and skews much older now.
- 38:37Tim would upload videos directly to Facebook after quitting Elite Daily because the algorithm pushed them harder than YouTube.
- 39:00Younger audiences skip Facebook entirely and go straight to Twitter, some never having had Facebook.
- 39:16Tim prefers Facebook and Instagram, tweets only once a week for promotion, and doesn't feel funny compressed into 140 characters.
- 39:44A tweet about liking sweet potato fries gets 5,000 retweets while other comics spend hours crafting political jokes that barely land.
- 40:14The algorithm fascinates him: someone sees he likes sweet potatoes and retweets it just because they also like sweet potatoes.
- 40:49Tim could tweet an inside joke with friends that has nothing to do with anything, and strangers will retweet it without understanding.
- 41:14His unemployed aunt woke him up ranting about the 25th Amendment removing Trump from office.
- 6 min
Tim and Joe discuss why comedians shouldn't use their platform to push political views since celebrity endorsements clearly didn't sway the election, and Joe explains he doesn't feel qualified or obligated to share opinions.
13moments
- 41:56Tim notes they're on the precipice of nuclear war, so posting jokes feels tone-deaf on days like that.
- 42:25He won't post on July 4th or election day, wanting people to pay attention to what matters.
- 42:38People ask for his political opinion, but he doesn't feel responsible to provide it.
- 42:53Why would you get political news from Kylie Jenner instead of actually informing yourself?
- 43:09Tim mentions having heard him say controversial things about Jewish people in private conversation but never online.
- 43:30His comedy touches on social issues and what's happening to the country, but it's not explicitly political.
- 44:05Many comedians now treat comedy as a platform for social change, but every comic and actor told people not to vote for Trump and he still won.
- 44:35When millionaire actors in Malibu mansions lecture people about politics, audiences reject the message.
- 44:51He admits he doesn't know enough to project bullshit political opinions, so he stays quiet.
- 46:14Tim has a podcast where he discusses nuanced takes on politics for an hour rather than telegraphing morality in 140 characters.
- 47:01People constantly announce they're against racism and feminism to signal virtue, but many accused male feminists in comedy get exposed for assault.
- 47:28In the YouTube community, 21-year-old kids in New Jersey suburban bedrooms talk about immigration and Western civilization collapse from their bedroom windows.
- 47:53These young online political commentators describe suburban America as a war zone while looking out at bucolic neighborhoods.
- 4 min
They discuss whether the 2016 election was a turning point in social media culture, Trump as a walking meme, and the unhealthy isolation of kids growing up entirely online versus Tim and Joe's own less-connected childhoods.
7moments
- 48:34Trump is a walking meme that people can turn into whatever they want, especially with his facial expressions.
- 48:59Tim credits the 2016 election's viral scale partly to Trump being a meme-ready figure at social media's peak.
- 49:23People are lonely because they're living on their phones instead of having in-person conversations.
- 49:43Seven-year-olds with iPhones are tweeting sexually suggestive things at celebrities, unlike kids his age who were afraid of girls.
- 50:15This generation's greatest moments and joys all happen on the internet—bullying, meeting girlfriends, all of it online.
- 50:47Tim values friendships with people he sees in person more than any online connections.
- 51:17In his youth, spending more than an hour a day on a computer got you called a nerd; now social media use is unavoidable if you don't want to miss out.
- 4 min
Joe explains spreading himself across platforms as insurance against sudden irrelevance (citing Vine stars who vanished), his phone screen time addiction, and how his friends and brother treat him completely normally.
8moments
- 51:42Tim spreads himself across multiple platforms — podcast, sports podcast, and other ventures — specifically to hedge against becoming irrelevant.
- 51:57Only about 20 people actually made it big off Vine before the platform shut down.
- 52:47Tim doesn't find himself interesting enough to livestream; he only posts edited videos he thinks will entertain people.
- 53:10His phone usage tracker showed four and a half to five and a half hours daily, which disgusted him enough to delete the app.
- 53:30Tim's brother works in a private school and isn't making a living off his brother's content.
- 53:49Tim's New York City friends don't treat him differently; the best part about living there was that nobody gives a shit about online fame.
- 54:14Tim had severe social anxiety when people started recognizing him on the train, before he got used to it.
- 54:42It's easier to explain being a stand-up comedian to people than explaining what a YouTuber does.
VinePlaylist LiveVidConRyan GoslingMiranda Sings
- 5 min
Joe describes his social anxiety about being recognized, contrasted with Tim's craving for stand-up-style adoration, then they discuss how much looks matter to Joe's YouTube success and whether gay fans try to turn him.
9moments
- 55:39Looks play a big part in initial appeal, especially for women, girls, and gay men trying to message him.
- 56:28Tim notes that good looks get people watching, but hopes subscriber-to-view ratios mean audiences stay for content, not just appearance.
- 57:08He told his agent he never wants to attend certain industry events and refuses to go back.
- 57:41Tim doesn't rely on his William Morris agent daily and won't do opportunities just because they pay well or seem prestigious.
- 58:50He's comfortable where he is and focused on maintaining his current level rather than chasing massive subscriber growth.
- 59:02Tim explains that bigger fame would bring weird stuff he's not interested in, like being recognized in delis.
- 59:23Comics hate social media people because they want their fame without the hassle of fans approaching them in public.
- 59:49People used to message him depressed messages back in the early days, but he never engaged with that dynamic.
- 1:00:05He's never had someone message him claiming to be suicidal on the 59th Street Bridge.
- 6 min
Joe recounts his first-ever stand-up set at his sold-out Caroline's show, his natural storytelling confidence from family gatherings, and whether the leap from YouTube to live stand-up is really that different.
9moments
- 1:00:20Tim texts Cameron Dallas with a picture of a knife to his wrist demanding sexual favors, and Cameron always responds "do it."
- 1:01:24Caroline's is a 300-seat comedy club in New York City.
- 1:01:43Guest says the stand-up set went pretty well, but admits there wasn't a lot of laughing.
- 1:02:20The guest has never done stand-up before attempting this 10-minute set at Caroline's.
- 1:02:50Tim explains the actual difference: when you walk into a room nobody knows who you are, you have to be funny, and you've got 45-55 minutes to do it.
- 1:03:43The guest didn't think it was easier than expected—just kind of right there where he thought it would be.
- 1:04:55Tim has bombed for 45 minutes straight while working the road, knowing he had to finish for the paycheck.
- 1:05:17The guest feels like he could focus and do stand-up well, but it's just not what he's been pursuing.
- 1:05:32You keep doing what you're good at and what brings you success—and the guest is already good at video.
- 5 min
Joe explains why he deliberately keeps his girlfriend out of his content, being financially comfortable enough to help his family, and his indifference to whether Louis CK or comedy snobs respect his YouTube work.
10moments
- 1:06:06Guest deliberately keeps girlfriend off camera to avoid audience speculation about their relationship status and inappropriate comments from viewers.
- 1:06:31Tim explains he doesn't post about personal or family matters because audiences shouldn't care about his private life.
- 1:07:04Guest describes reaching financial comfort through comedy by diversifying income across six different revenue streams rather than relying on a single source.
- 1:07:31Tim notes that social media creators have an advantage over traditional comedians by thinking strategically about branding and marketing from the start.
- 1:08:08Guest rejects the gatekeeping attitude many standup comedians have about YouTube and other platforms, willing to pursue any format.
- 1:08:38Tim acknowledges his strengths as a podcast guest and live performer while accepting he doesn't excel at creating YouTube-only content.
- 1:09:06Guest argues standup comedians should diversify their work and stop maintaining narrow focus solely on live comedy for financial security.
- 1:09:41Tim describes not caring about recognition from comedy establishment, press, or comedy blogs—only doing what he genuinely wants to do.
- 1:10:09Guest assumes successful comedians he admires would judge his diversified approach as taking the easy route.
- 1:10:28Despite respecting figures like Louis C.K., guest remains indifferent to their potential disapproval of his career choices.
- 4 min
Joe defends his 'hacky' Mad Libs videos as genuine entertainment for his family, discusses wanting his work to be inspirational through demonstrated work ethic, and references Matt Pavich's early jealousy of his rapid success.
6moments
- 1:10:40Tim explains his approach to comedy: he doesn't care what people think as long as they're laughing, and he's never geared content toward a specific audience.
- 1:11:23The Mad Libs videos might seem hacky, but he finds them genuinely hilarious to watch and considers them a form of entertainment worth sharing.
- 1:12:00Asked if he wants to create something that stands the test of time rather than transactional social media content, he says the scripted series is what that would be.
- 1:12:57Matt Pavich, who lives nearby, was initially furious when Tim started blowing up on social media while working two jobs and doing shows every night.
- 1:13:57Over time Pavich came to respect the grind of producing new content every single week, even though less than half of what Tim puts out is stuff he's super proud of.
- 1:14:38The criticism of many YouTubers is that they prioritize quantity over quality—just putting something out rather than ensuring it's actually good.
Matt PavichKate WolfJames and Menzelo
- 4 min
They discuss the pressure to constantly produce new videos regardless of quality, Joe's discomfort with being paid well without 'nice things' like a Mazda 3, and a bit comparing his income favorably against Tim's stand-up grind.
7moments
- 1:15:07Tim worries people could forget about him if he took a month off, so he doesn't think he has that luxury.
- 1:15:56He wants his content to be inspirational by example—showing that you don't need bells and whistles, just consistent work with a camera over years.
- 1:17:17Tim felt guilty making so much money with so little effort, which is why he added two podcasts to his workload.
- 1:18:08The guest explains he didn't feel he was doing enough work for the money, despite not having to work as hard as he used to.
- 1:18:24He used to work a nine-to-five job, go to the gym, do podcasts in the city, then come home and make a video same day.
- 1:18:43Now he shoots and edits his videos in one day, with the creative process happening in his head during the rest of the week.
- 1:18:59Tim asks if the guest ever looks at relatives busting their ass while he makes eight times their income just by broadcasting.
- 5 min
Tim floats the theory that Warren Buffett's frugality is a put-on, Joe confirms he helps his family financially now, and they discuss admiring anyone who's 'figured something out,' comparing Joe's success to Kim Kardashian's.
8moments
- 1:19:59Warren Buffett's $77 billion net worth and living in his childhood home strikes Tim as performative humility.
- 1:20:44Guest drives a Mazda 3 with $350/month insurance and payment, uninterested in designer clothes or flashy possessions.
- 1:21:04Growing up, the guest wore only sweatpants and basketball shorts until age 15, never developing interest in clothing as status.
- 1:21:46Tim asks if the guest helps family financially; the guest confirms and credits them for supporting his college dropout decision.
- 1:22:13Tim explains his default is curiosity rather than jealousy, allowing him to respect different paths people take.
- 1:23:00Guest observes that social media success requires consistency and not obsessing over everything being perfect.
- 1:23:24Guest filled a void in comedy—no other kid from Queens was cursing about sluts on TV when he started.
- 1:24:00Tim argues Kim Kardashian's $150 million wealth reflects something she figured out, not just fame or looks.
- 5 min
Joe admits the YouTube grind no longer feels fulfilling and he wants to write a scripted series people can't ignore, discussing the work ethic gap between quick clips and sustained long-form writing.
9moments
- 1:25:06Guest wants to make shit that people respect, not just continue with YouTube content.
- 1:25:21Tim agrees that even making close to a million dollars annually, the drive for respect in creative work matters.
- 1:25:45Building things from the ground up and having people be proud of you is what drives him.
- 1:26:24Guest can't do the same thing forever and sees scripted series as insurance if YouTube content tanks.
- 1:27:02Want to make things people can't ignore because YouTube videos get dismissed as repetitive weekly content.
- 1:27:22Guest identifies work ethic as what needs to change, admits inability to sit down for four hours straight.
- 1:27:41Tim relates: instant feedback from stand-up is easier than writing a 28-page pilot script.
- 1:28:06Tim questions where the confidence comes from to write a hilarious series he's never attempted before.
- 1:28:32Guest claims faith in ability has always been there, even for things never done before.
- 4 min
They discuss confidence (citing TJ Miller's stage presence) as more important than raw talent, joke about Joe's tiny secondary YouTube channel with 74 dead subscribers, and Tim runs through his tour dates and plugs Joe's Basement Yard podcast.
10moments
- 1:28:55Tim argues that confidence is the key to success.
- 1:29:08Watching TJ Miller's HBO special, Tim was struck by his confident stage presence despite not being a huge fan of the material itself.
- 1:29:23Most people are sheep and will follow anyone who projects confidence, which is why it works.
- 1:29:38Tim emphasizes you have to be real with yourself—if you're not good, you need to accept criticism and improve rather than delude yourself.
- 1:30:15He takes information from anybody regardless of their follower count because they might offer something valuable.
- 1:30:33Tim plugs his YouTube channel, joking that listeners should check his subscriber count because it's phenomenal.
- 1:30:49Guest asks if it hurts Tim that he's a very influential member of the American Nazi Party.
- 1:31:09Tim's YouTube channel has 74 subscribers and they're all dead—subscribe and you die like The Ring.
- 1:31:32Tim jokes that Joe's podcast is only the third most listened to in the country, behind Two Dope Queens and Guys We Fucked.
- 1:31:56Sign-off with live tour dates and social media plugs for both Tim and Joe Santagato.
TJ MillerJoe Santagato
- 2 min
They fantasize about how out-of-touch Cameron Dallas would be in an interview, discuss how insulated big stars are from real feedback, and Joe recalls being called names by former classmates before he started making real money.
5moments
- 1:32:49Tim would pay $200 to watch a sit-down with Cameron Dallas and just talk about Trump and Russia.
- 1:33:06Good-looking people at a certain point become completely out of touch with reality and have nothing tethering them.
- 1:33:36Even big comedians like Louie CK and Kevin Hart have to deal with feedback from people who hate them, keeping them grounded.
- 1:34:08Early hate mail came from high school kids calling him a fag and saying he thought he was better than people.
- 1:34:23Now making close to a million dollars a year while those haters work at mortgage brokerages for their uncle.