Episode 131 · The GaS Digital / Ray Kump Era
An Exotic Beast
Jan 19, 2019 · 58:38 · 17 segments, 123 moments indexed
- 1 min
Cold Open: Introducing NYT Comedy Critic Jason Zinoman
#Tim opens the show welcoming New York Times comedy critic Jason Zinoman, joking about him coming on without his employer's knowledge, and running through his background writing about theater and comedy since 2011.
1moment
- 0:27Tim expresses surprise at being excited to have a guest on the show.
- 3 min
They discuss Zinoman's Letterman biography and 90s late night nostalgia, then pivot into a debate about whether modern late night (Muppets, Taylor Swift) is any good, before arguing over whether comedy podcasts qualify as an art form the way stand-up specials do.
7moments
- 1:06Tim mentions reading Letterman: The Last Great Giant of Late Night and growing up sneaking downstairs to watch Letterman and Arsenio Hall in the mid to late 90s.
- 1:40Tim acknowledges the Letterman-versus-Leno divide and admits he held the belief that liking Leno made you useless, though he's softened on it now.
- 2:02Current late-night TV with Muppets, celebrity games, and Taylor Swift appearances—asked whether this excites a comedy critic.
- 2:33Jason agrees there isn't much exciting or interesting comedy on shows like Saturday Night Live and late night, with a lot of sameness across the board.
- 3:02Tim points out that Jason never writes about podcasting, which is never the subject of a whole article.
- 3:20Tim gets more audience attention from his podcast than from his Netflix special, raising the question of what critics should prioritize covering.
- 3:39Jason argues that podcasting—two comedians talking about issues for an hour and a half—is not an art form the way stand-up comedy is.
David LettermanpodcastingSaturday Night Livelate night televisionThe TimesJason
- 3 min
Tim pushes back hard on Zinoman's skepticism about podcasts, citing shows like Come Town and Comedy Bang Bang, while Zinoman argues popularity doesn't equal artistic merit and compares it to Howard Stern's interview skill versus his early sketch work.
7moments
- 4:05Podcasting has a low barrier to entry, leading many comics to treat shows as a duty rather than pursuing inspired content.
- 4:29Comedy podcasts like Comedy Bang Bang and Come Town are phenomenally funny and financially successful, making $60,000 a month on Patreon.
- 5:04Tim listens to far more comedy podcasts now than he did five years ago and finds them incredibly useful for discovering new comedians.
- 5:39Podcasts are clearly valid as a major form in comedy, but the real question is whether they're an art form equivalent to standup specials.
- 5:59Popularity and relevance are different from the question of whether something is actually an art form.
- 6:16The Howard Stern Show functions as an art form when done really well, with timeless skits that are undeniably hilarious.
- 6:51Howard Stern today is very different from twenty years ago—he's become great at interviewing famous people rather than creating comedy.
Howard Stern ShowHoward SternCum TownComedy Bang! Bang!NPRThe New YorkerSerial
- 3 min
Zinoman describes reviewing Julie Klausner's podcast as blending comedy and criticism, then they debate Joe Rogan's podcast, the homogeneity of late night shows, and whether any current late night show is genuinely good start to finish.
8moments
- 7:07Tim distinguishes between standup specials as art and podcast content on a different tier.
- 7:31Julie Klausner's podcast blends comedy and criticism in ways that standup and other formats can't achieve.
- 8:13Joe Rogan's podcast, one of the world's biggest, isn't actually a comedy podcast.
- 8:26Tim argues late-night shows are just as homogenous and copycat-driven as podcasts, but there are only three or four of them instead of many.
- 8:57There's not a single late-night show right now worth watching from beginning to end.
- 9:20Tim has turned down late-night offers because his comedy won't work well in that environment.
- 9:33He doesn't want every comic doing tight, TV-clean five minutes—he wants variety across mediums.
- 9:50Criticism has been democratized through YouTube, social media, and user reviews, raising the question of what value professional critics still provide.
Julie KlosnerJoe Rogan
- 4 min
Tim challenges Zinoman on why critics still matter when everyone has a platform now; Zinoman argues authority is earned through track record and hard work, not credentials, and praises how seriously UK audiences and critics engage with comedy.
8moments
- 10:18Tim challenges what gives any critic authority when everyone has a platform now.
- 10:48The guest argues there's no inherent reason to listen to criticism without formal credentials.
- 11:08Authority actually comes from institutional affiliation—he's read because he writes for The New York Times.
- 11:26Earning authority requires hard work, dedication to craft, and building a track record over time.
- 11:50The democratization of criticism is actually fantastic and similar to how comedy works—no degree required.
- 12:30Tim argues criticism is tremendously important to fertile artistic scenes throughout history.
- 12:59The smarter artists—the ones with no following, dying poor—understand that intelligent critical engagement beats obscurity.
- 13:20His experience at Glasgow Comedy Festival showed serious critics doing genuine due diligence on a comedy show without political agenda.
- 4 min
They argue about whether British comedy critics are more rigorous and fair than American ones, touch on Edinburgh Fringe's unique review culture, then shift into a debate about Twitter mob vigilantism, moral scolds in comedy journalism, and 1950s censorship comparisons.
7moments
- 13:56UK comedy criticism culture treats reviews like theater, focusing on substance rather than outrage.
- 14:44British press can make or break a comedian's career, unlike in America where comedy coverage is scattered.
- 15:10American comedians experience theater-style reviews at Edinburgh Fringe but not in regular UK comedy clubs.
- 15:43Tim challenges the mythologized version of British comedy press that he and other American comics discuss.
- 16:10Swedish comedy journalists email asking how to improve their craft—something no American critic does.
- 16:40Some comedy press articles are written as straight lies, though Tim admits some are unintentionally hilarious.
- 17:05Tim says he's harsher on the comedy press than on comedians because he addresses what actually exists versus fiction.
Edinburgh FringeUK comedy press
- 5 min
They discuss the Upright Citizens Brigade not paying performers, its reputational collapse and closing theaters, and pivot to how Louis CK's leaked Governors Club set got unfairly compared to a finished Netflix special by a bad-faith press.
10moments
- 17:41Tim argues that comedians having national platforms for controversial material would have seemed unimaginable 50 years ago, when even mild language was censored from television.
- 18:21He expresses discomfort with online vigilantism where people weaponize mob anger to elevate their own position and ruin careers for clicks and attention.
- 19:01The core problem in comedy criticism is a complete lack of good faith—always the worst reading of everything, whether judging comedians or journalists.
- 20:09Tim's interviewer explains his approach to reporting on UCB's unpaid labor practice, asking UCB to make their best argument for why he was wrong.
- 20:25UCB's response to the criticism was reportedly bizarre—going into the economics of slavery and how it built up the South.
- 20:40The Upright Citizens Brigade's currency was being cool, and the scandal has hurt them because it undermined that image.
- 20:58UCB has never paid their employees—not comedians—on principle, which is presented as a matter of ideology rather than necessity.
- 21:55Louis CK's leaked Governors set is being compared to his Netflix specials, creating pressure for commentary.
- 22:13Tim's interviewer chose not to write about the leaked Louis CK material because he wanted to wait for a finished product to compare apples to apples.
- 22:36Bad faith commentary on comedy comes from journalists and other comedians alike, making it a widespread problem across the field.
Upright Citizens Brigade TheaterAmy PoehlerTina FeyParkland
- 4 min
They debate whether comedy meaningfully shapes political discourse post-9/11 Letterman and Jon Stewart, whether Hollywood telling people not to vote for Trump backfired, and how Trump's appeal is tied to the same transgressive comedic instinct comedians rely on.
10moments
- 22:45Comedy has done more to change the national conversation than any other art form.
- 23:02The Daily Show became a primary news source for many people.
- 23:32Letterman's post-9/11 monologue established a precedent for late-night hosts to be emotionally engaged.
- 23:56Every major comedian and celebrity told people not to vote for Trump, creating backlash from voters who feel patronized by entertainers.
- 24:41Trump talks about political correctness, the same notes club comedians have been hitting for years.
- 25:13Trump's appeal is built largely on transgression, the same appeal that has driven comedy for decades.
- 25:32George Carlin said the comedian's job is to find the line and cross it; now the job seems to be finding the line and staying far away from it.
- 25:55There's still plenty of comedians pushing boundaries, but they face higher risk of backlash now.
- 26:14The cultural response to entertainers lecturing people politically hasn't been successful and never has been.
- 26:43Trump has actually reenergized many failing shows and comedians who might not otherwise be thriving.
Donald TrumpGeorge CarlinThe Daily ShowDavid LettermanJimmy KimmelJon Stewart
- 5 min
Zinoman presses Tim on whether he really believes comedy is unimportant given he's dedicated his life to it, drawing a parallel to horror films and transgression, arguing comedy can do damage but also give meaning, while Tim insists politics/culture matter more.
11moments
- 26:59Tim argues against the idea that comedy is important, challenging the notion that comedians should accept this premise.
- 27:32Nobody has ever committed a hate crime because they heard a joke, Tim claims, questioning whether comedy bears moral responsibility.
- 27:52People have dedicated their lives to competitive dance and it's not important—Tim uses the analogy to push back on elevating comedy's significance.
- 28:22The guest proposes a logical choice: either comedy is important and deserves scrutiny, or it's frivolous escapism for blue married ladies.
- 28:43Tim shifts his actual position, saying he does think comedy is important, and compares it to horror films as an art form that can meaningfully affect people.
- 29:29Watching amoral horror films raises the question of whether they do damage, even if Tim hasn't killed anyone—he applies the same standard to both mediums.
- 29:55Tim insists he genuinely believes comedy is important and suspects he could argue the guest into conceding the same.
- 30:20Culture matters more than anything, Tim states, disagreeing that politics is the only thing of value.
- 30:33Pushing subversive comedy out of the mainstream forces it into toxic corners of the internet; you need a broad public sphere where people can be offensive.
- 31:14The guest says Tim is already making an argument for why comedy is important by invoking the public sphere and the need to explore ideas.
- 31:46Live comedy audiences go to clubs, have drinks, see a show, go home and forget it—Tim questions whether it's really a place where people seek philosophy or life advice.
- 5 min
Tim argues writers' rooms and late night are ideologically homogenous and lack blue-collar voices; Zinoman concedes the class diversity point but defends comedy's overall ideological range, citing the Comedy Cellar's mix of Nick DiPaolo and progressive comics, and his own reporting trips to Ohio and Texas.
7moments
- 32:23Tim argues that comedy today has many different kinds, but comedians get elevated by politics rather than pure talent.
- 33:14The lack of ideological and class diversity in mainstream comedy writers' rooms—mostly Ivy League, coastal, and left-leaning—limits what gets made.
- 34:04Tim pushes back: there's actually more ideological diversity in comedy clubs than almost anywhere else in art.
- 35:10UCB is more progressive than clubs but worse on labor issues and more racially homogenous—ironically the opposite of what people assume.
- 35:38Every single late-night show has the same ideological perspective, making the diversity problem in mainstream television undeniable.
- 36:11The guest claims to have written positively about Larry the Cable Guy in the New York Times and traveled to Texas to see him perform.
- 36:29Tim mocks the guest's description of going to Ohio and Texas as if on a dangerous expedition, standing in line with audiences he clearly disdains.
Saturday Night LiveAmy SchumerLarry the Cable GuyMichelle WolfNick DiPaloUCBComedy CellarAli Wong+6 more
- 3 min
They revisit Zinoman's 2017 article arguing comedy needed another bust, discussing how the supposed fallow period between comedy booms actually produced great alt-comedy (Chappelle, Mr. Show) and how mid-level comedians now struggle to break through.
10moments
- 37:04Tim brings up the 2017 article claiming comedy needs a bust and says he agreed with it at the time.
- 37:23The guest admits he's written positively about Tim Dillon and now regrets it.
- 37:36Tim recalls the article's argument: there was too much sameness in comedy and it was harder for mid-level performers to break through to the next level.
- 37:58The guest argues that the funniest people are the ones working hardest in clubs, focused on their art rather than chasing fame.
- 38:25Tim explains the bust article's thesis: the period between the 80s boom and 2008 was economically bad for comedy clubs but actually artistically strong.
- 38:48Chappelle and the invention of alt comedy with Mr. Show happened during the supposed fallow period, contradicting the narrative that it was a bad time for comedy.
- 39:09UCB started in that period as an exciting, risk-taking space but has since hardened into an institutional conservative place.
- 39:35The guest argues institutions aren't that important—artists and the scene are what matter, and institutions should serve artists rather than sacrifice them.
- 39:58Tim notes that thinking about the consumer matters too: ticket prices and accessibility affect whether comedy is thriving.
- 40:14The guest admits he was wrong about predicting a bust—there hasn't actually been one, and maybe podcasts are part of why the market hasn't collapsed.
UCBDave ChappelleMr. ShowKate BerlantRory Scoville
- 4 min
They discuss whether Netflix has been a net positive or negative for comedy, Comedy Central's attempted comeback with Bill Burr, and dig into the divisive audience-less Drew Michael HBO special that comedians privately hated.
8moments
- 40:54Tim refers to Comedy Central as 'Comedy Marginal,' which didn't go over well with people there.
- 41:09Netflix destroyed Comedy Central, primarily through money.
- 41:45Tim argues that anyone claiming 'comedy is this' doesn't understand how incredibly complicated and varied the comedy landscape actually is.
- 42:01Netflix is starting to have troubles while Comedy Central tries to reclaim market share it lost.
- 42:23Netflix has been a net positive for comedy overall, though middle-tier comedians are ill-served by the platform despite getting specials—they get lost and don't get promoted.
- 43:05Even with a Netflix special available 24 hours a day for eternity, the oversaturation of content makes it extremely hard to stand out.
- 43:39Drew Michael reveals Comedy Central, HBO, and Netflix have all offered him specials.
- 43:51If all three platforms offered him a special, he'd be so big he'd just put it out on his own website instead.
- 5 min
Tim argues critics are elitist and disconnected from working-class audiences who just want to laugh, not see comedy 'subverted,' and needles Zinoman about condescending to blue-collar people, leading to a debate about ethnic humor and who really understands it.
8moments
- 44:11Tim defends the Drew Michael special to comedians despite their off-record hatred of it.
- 44:43The special would have worked better with a live audience present, since people thought he wasn't telling jokes.
- 45:10Nobody actually goes to a comedy club hoping for perspective instead of laughs—people want to be funny, not subverted.
- 46:19Comedy critics present a false choice between being funny and subverting form, when subversion is often the essence of punchlines.
- 47:10Working people go to comedy to laugh because they have real jobs and real problems, not to watch wealthy people indulge themselves in Brooklyn.
- 47:38Tim responds to accusation of condescending to working-class people by claiming to be working class himself.
- 48:29Critics don't understand ethnic humor because they went to Harvard and Yale and never worked blue-collar jobs where every ethnicity jokes about each other.
- 49:01The interviewer acknowledges Tim has truth in his argument but uses comedic exaggeration to take it too far, which is why he's funny but also why his argument is shit.
Drew Michaelcomedy criticismHBO
- 3 min
They discuss how comedians tailor material to different audiences, agree there's a healthy natural antagonism between comedians and critics, and then Tim ribs Zinoman about a supposed love of far-right pivoted comedian Owen Benjamin.
7moments
- 49:34Tim explains that as a theater critic, he had to teach himself to appreciate all types of performance, not just the ones he naturally liked as a kid.
- 50:17The challenge of covering comedy for The New York Times is appreciating everything from ethnic humor to alt Brooklyn comedy while writing for a general, typically liberal audience.
- 50:58Tim adjusts his material for about 80% of rooms he performs in, mentioning he's straight about his marriage.
- 51:14There should be natural antagonism between comedians and critics because they both love the same thing but approach it from different angles.
- 51:40Tim rejects the idea of a unified comedy community, arguing there's inherent antagonism between comedians and critics that's actually healthy.
- 52:14Owen Benjamin's career pivot: he was a piano guy who went super right-wing, moved to a yard chopping wood, talks about flat earth, and is now making significant money.
- 52:38Tim notes that Owen Benjamin's new direction is proving to be a better career move financially.
Owen BenjaminNew York TimesBeacon, New YorkBroadway musicalsDeath of a Salesman
- 4 min
Tim presses Zinoman on why he doesn't cover West Coast comedians and figures like Rogan and Jordan Peterson as much, and Zinoman defends his East Coast focus while praising Rogan as a top-tier interviewer.
8moments
- 52:46Tim claims he's too beloved by the coasts and mainstream institutions to join the intellectual dark web.
- 53:08Rogan is a great interviewer, though Tim ranks himself higher.
- 53:37Tim admits to East Coast bias in his coverage, citing that he's based in New York and sees more local comedians.
- 53:57The interviewer praises Tim's articles for being thorough and real, not rushed throwaway takes.
- 54:47Tim designed his journalism position himself to avoid being forced to pump out twenty pieces a week.
- 55:30The interviewer argues the giant star is a thing of the past and the future is niche audiences.
- 55:52Developing your audience and brand narrowly risks creating only certain kinds of comedians.
- 56:16Louis C.K., the most hated comedian in America, is also the most talented.
- 1 min
Zinoman argues Louis CK's rare talent was dramatizing opposing viewpoints better than any comedian, framed as the future of comedy, before Tim wraps up the interview thanking him for coming on.
3moments
- 56:47Tim argues that the ability to argue well and reach across divides makes for better art, but worries comedians are losing that skill as they retreat into niches.
- 57:05Tim sarcastically cites Jason Zinneman from the New York Times calling Louis CK the future of comedy, urging listeners to contact him about their excitement.
- 57:20Guest thanks Tim for the interview, admitting he didn't expect to be invited on the show.
- 1 min
Tim runs through upcoming tour dates in Madison, Long Island, and LA with joking instructions about cheese and heroin, thanks Jason Zinoman for appearing, and closes out the episode.
3moments
- 57:31Tim's tour advice: bring cold cheese, not hot cheese, to his shows.
- 57:41Governors Comedy Club in Long Island, January 25th and 26th—bring heroin, black tar.
- 57:58Rate, subscribe, and review the podcast on Gas Digital.
Governors comedy ClubJason ZinnimanNew York Times