Interview · moment 12 of 20
The Dulles Brothers' Power Dynamic and MK-Ultra
from Slumbering Herds of Cattle · #12
Audio-only archive episode — no video to seek.
3 minGuest
Talbot compares Allen and John Foster Dulles's complementary roles running the CIA and State Department under an ailing Eisenhower, then pivots to Dulles's fascination with mind control and the MK-Ultra program.
- 34:29Tim asks what the American elite would be willing to do if Trump got close to the presidency, suggesting they've eliminated bigger threats before.
- 35:13Guest describes the Dulles brothers' power dynamic: John Foster as the dignified diplomat, Allen as the icy enforcer doing the dirty work.
- 35:56Foster had few friends but Allen Dulles was a frequent visitor, constantly strategizing together and effectively taking over the Eisenhower presidency.
- 36:32Allen resented that Foster got the Secretary of State job instead of him, believing his international network was stronger despite Foster being a corporate lawyer.
- 37:10Tim notes the CIA became obsessed with mind control and the MK-Ultra program that was supposedly terminated.
- 37:30Tim asks whether a program like MK-Ultra would have actually ended when the CIA claimed it did, or if something like that persists today.
Allen DullesMK UltraJohn Foster DullesDwight EisenhowerDonald Trump